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Darwinism must be false because matter cannot produce consciousness.

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Darwinism must be false because matter cannot produce consciousness.  Empty Darwinism must be false because matter cannot produce consciousness.

Post by Guest on May 19th 2013, 1:39 am

I copied the below comment from
Life in B Flat

Which is a blog I follow.
I had never really realised that the fact there is consciousness
invalidates Darwinism to an extent.
Very interesting conclusion.
I hope it is of interest.


If matter cannot produce consciousness, Darwinism must be false. Darwinism, the theory of evolution by natural selection, is a theory of how organisms, such as conscious human beings, evolved from simpler forms of matter through natural processes. If matter cannot produce consciousness, then it is impossible for conscious human beings to have evolved through natural selection and so Darwinism must be false.

This concept was explained by Gary Gutting in Nagel's Untimely Idea on commonwealmagazine.org. This article contains three reviews of Thomas Nagel's book Mind and Cosmos. Gutting writes:
Why does Nagel insist on a radical rejection of the materialist metaphysics rather than endorsing Chalmers’s dualistic supplement to it? Because, Nagel maintains, materialist accounts rely on Darwinian evolution, which is not capable of explaining the origin of consciousness from matter.

But why is it impossible for consciousness to originate from matter? One line of reasoning that explains why matter cannot produce consciousness is suggested in the same article by physicist Stephen M. Barr:
Even if one knew all the variables of a physical system, their values at one time or at all times, and the equations governing them, there would be no way to derive from that information anything about whether the system in question was conscious, was feeling anything, or was having subjective experiences of any sort.

Barr is saying that the experience of consciousness, what you are feeling, what sensations feel like, is unexplainable by physics.

You can describe brain states in terms of neurotransmitters and cell organization, and neuron firing patterns, and in as much detail as you like, but you will never be able to understand from that what it is like to feel happy or what it is like to see the color red. A physical description of brain a state is fundamentally different from an experience. You can't explain what an experience is like through brain states. You might be able to say such and such a brain state produces the feeling of happiness, but you can't explain, based on a description of brain states, what it feels like to experience being happy, or what it is like to experience seeing the color red. Consciousness is something that is fundamentally different from any material process.

There are many other lines of reasoning and many independent forms of evidence that indicate that matter cannot produce consciousness. I have written about several of them on this blog and on my web site. Most of what I have written on the subject can be accessed from my article Materialism Cannot Explain Consciousness. This article links to discussions of philosophical arguments and also to several independent forms of empirical evidence that consciousness survives death. If consciousness can exist after the brain has died, then the matter in the brain cannot be responsible for the production of consciousness.

Since matter cannot produce consciousness, conscious beings like humans cannot have arisen through any purely material process such as Darwinian evolution. Therefore Darwinism must be false.
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Post by Aussiepom on May 19th 2013, 11:22 am

Through the years there have been several arguments over this subject,Stephen.

Was Darwin right? Did we grow through evilution? From fish to animal to human beings?

Now I am not sure whether animals do have a consciousness or not.

By consciousness are we bringing 'feelings' into this.

Feelings of happiness and brain power? Feelings of pain which are physical.

Did Darwin think that humans and animals were completely separate organisms?
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Post by Guest on May 19th 2013, 11:48 am

Dear Joan,
I am no expert on Darwinism.
But his theory has been unable to explain consciousness succesfully
according to the writer of the blog.I would concur with this.
This basically dooms a bottom up only evolution.
I feel,but can not prove there is a top down influence in evolution.
Hope this helps a bit.
It is a massive subject and my knowledge is not really upto
explaining very well.
Sorry
Stephen
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Post by Aussiepom on May 19th 2013, 4:07 pm

I'm much the same,Stephen. The little I know about evolution I learned at school.
The start of which was fish,then the general run through animals to apes etc.
Going to apes,would you say that apes have consciousness? They are the pre-runner of man.

Thanks for your very interesting topics. They get me thinking and I learn through you.

Joan
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Post by bhagavandas on May 27th 2013, 12:00 am

There are many, many good arguments against Darwinism. Darwinism is a fad, and will disappear with time. God is not a fad. He's been around a looooong time, and will always be around. It's impossible to shake humanity's belief if God. The atheists under Red China and the Soviet Union were never able to create an atheistic society. It's unnatural for a human to be an atheist. It's normal to believe in God, and in Creation.
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Post by Guest on May 27th 2013, 2:01 am

Very good point Mike.
Thanks
Stephen
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Post by Aussiepom on May 27th 2013, 7:03 am

There has to be 'something' or someone who rules the Universe. Or else where did the 'plan' originate from to produce the human race?

If only we knew the truth about God! Who he or she is? Or it an 'it'?

Reminds me of the film The Wizzard of Oz! Is it some strong Wizzard who rules the universe or is a weak little man with brains far beyond our knowing?
But then again....where did he did originate from?
Joan
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Post by Guest on May 27th 2013, 8:12 am

Dear Joan,
I suspect the answer to this is to be found inside us.
But please do not quote me on this as I really do not know.
Stephen
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Post by sunmystic on May 27th 2013, 4:31 pm

Guys please feel free to ignore me or go around me, all is well and I do not mind. Ok? Again, Stephen has brought up an intriguing topic and I just want to post something about it. Please do not let me disrupt your flow of dialog because what I am posting could just be, "John being weird again". Ok?

The OP of this topic also brings up the question, "Can a computer (artificial intelligence) reach a certain critical mass where it becomes self aware?" Conventional wisdom seems to think that this is possible and possibly a problem. And the more that science investigates the DNA molecule, the human brain, and the human body the more it is coming to the conclusion that we as human organisms are very sophisticated biological robots that have reached this critical mass and have become self aware.

It is also becoming obvious that living things generate an energy field that is a part of the functioning of the biological system. Conventional wisdom also seems to maintain that when we die we go to a spirit world and that the spirit world is made up of self aware minds that occupy an energy body that is no longer attached to the gross physical body.

From this one could speculate that the "energy field" and the "self aware mind" that are generated and created as a part of the mechanical functioning of the biological robotic organism that is a human being, do not die. But, they actually have the ability to leave the gross physical body and maintain themselves as a self aware mind in an energy body. And that once the functioning of a mechanical physical body has created a self aware mind and the energy field as a part of its mechanical functioning that the self aware mind and the energy field associated with that mind are immortal for some unexplainable reason. One could also then conclude that what the mechanical has created, because the self aware mind and the energy field can exist outside of the gross physical body as energy and self awareness, that the mechanical can reach toward what is generally considered "God" who is "not of creation". John
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Post by bhagavandas on May 27th 2013, 9:56 pm

Hi Sunnymystic,
I disagree with your thoughts here. From my study of Spiritism, Hinduism and even Christianity, CONSCIOUSNESS comes from Spirit, and not from matter. We are a spirit with a body; we are not a body with a spirit. Spirit is the seat of thought. Spirit is the seat of BEING. Spirit if the seat of existence. Without spirit there is no BEING. Without spirit there is no ME. Without spirit there is no YOU. A computer cannot become conscious, becase a computer has no spirit. GOD IS SPIRIT. And God is a Person. The Bhagavadgita states (as well as the Bible and the Spiritist Codex books) that we came from God. Our origin is in the spirit world. Somehow, we have fallen down into matter. Our goal should be to get back to Godhead... out of the material world.
So, matter is NOT the origin of consciousness. God is. Krishna said, "There never was a time when I did not exist; nor a time when you did not exist. You have lived many, many lives, as have I. The difference is that I (Krishna) remember all of my lives, and you do not." (paraphrased).
We are like sparks, and God is the bon fire. We are the innumerable sparks that fly forth from God. So, we are qualitatively similar to God. We are part and parcel of God, but we are not God; just as a spark comes forth from the fire, but is not the fire. Or just as a drop of salt water may come from the ocean, but is not the ocean.
So, LIFE COMES FROM LIFE. Life never can, and never will come from matter, such as a computer.
sunmystic wrote:Guys please feel free to ignore me or go around me, all is well and I do not mind. Ok? Again, Stephen has brought up an intriguing topic and I just want to post something about it. Please do not let me disrupt your flow of dialog because what I am posting could just be, "John being weird again". Ok?

The OP of this topic also brings up the question, "Can a computer (artificial intelligence) reach a certain critical mass where it becomes self aware?" Conventional wisdom seems to think that this is possible and possibly a problem. And the more that science investigates the DNA molecule, the human brain, and the human body the more it is coming to the conclusion that we as human organisms are very sophisticated biological robots that have reached this critical mass and have become self aware.

It is also becoming obvious that living things generate an energy field that is a part of the functioning of the biological system. Conventional wisdom also seems to maintain that when we die we go to a spirit world and that the spirit world is made up of self aware minds that occupy an energy body that is no longer attached to the gross physical body.

From this one could speculate that the "energy field" and the "self aware mind" that are generated and created as a part of the mechanical functioning of the biological robotic organism that is a human being, do not die. But, they actually have the ability to leave the gross physical body and maintain themselves as a self aware mind in an energy body. And that once the functioning of a mechanical physical body has created a self aware mind and the energy field as a part of its mechanical functioning that the self aware mind and the energy field associated with that mind are immortal for some unexplainable reason. One could also then conclude that what the mechanical has created, because the self aware mind and the energy field can exist outside of the gross physical body as energy and self awareness, that the mechanical can reach toward what is generally considered "God" who is "not of creation". John
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Post by sunmystic on May 28th 2013, 10:36 am

Well Bhagavandas, I can not argue with Krishna, after all, he was God incarnate. Love, John
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Post by sunmystic on May 28th 2013, 12:57 pm

It is not my goal or purpose to question the validity of the great written religious works or even the great religious legends or beliefs. But, with the scientific advancements in today's world in embryology, genetic research, and archeology the concept of "evolution" has become fact and is becoming more so everyday. And this scientific evidence is creating a greater schism between today's science and today's religions. My goal or purpose is to create some kind of union between science and religion with religion being defined at least minimally that there is a "profoundly powerful force" that has "awareness" and that "it" is at play in what is generally considered creation so that science can also prove the existence of this "profoundly powerful force" that does have "awareness" and then to explore how "it" is at play in the mechanics of creation.

Now with that said, if one looks at things from the eyes of the evolutionist and everything is mechanical and evolving and from the eyes of the creationists and everything was Divinely created by the Creator, there, on the surface, does seem to be any union. But if we do not limit the abilities of the Creator and the infinite possibilities of "its" wisdom, then, if science is correct and everything is mechanical and is evolving, there is also the possibility that the Creator built into creation a way for life to evolve itself to the level that it, the mechanical, can reach out and connect with the Creator and share the Creator's reality. A way that starts with simple cellular life that evolves into a complex living organism that becomes immortal as a self aware being at its birth, that can over time, because of this immortality as a self aware being, evolve into a self aware being that has the ability to connect to the Creator and share the Creator's experience with the Creator. So, if for some reason the evolutionists are correct, there still is the possibility which can be proven by science that there is an interesting wonderment at work in what is generally considered "living creation". John
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Post by sunmystic on May 28th 2013, 1:20 pm

Footnote: We know that it is possible to build a box that allows us to communicate directly with the Creator because the ancient Jewish folks built one. So because that was possible it then also is possible for science to empirically study the Creator. The only challenge is, "How can it be done?", because there is a way that it can be done. John
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Post by bhagavandas on May 29th 2013, 9:52 pm

Hi John,
We may be agreeing without realizing it. However, I still get the feeling that you believe that immortaility, or the spirit, comes AFTER physical evolution. I may be wrong about this.
I don't believe that evolution has become a fact, nor do I believe that it's becoming more so everyday. The only thing that the 'evolutionary record' proves is that the earth is very, very old. There's NOTHING in the 'evolutionary' record that contradicts the Vedas (aka Hindu Scriptures). The fossil records simply validate the Vedic Scriptures. I'd encourage you to order and read the book FORBIDDEN ARACHEOLOGY by Michael Cremo ( http://www.forbiddenarcheology.com/ ). The fact is, the theory of evolution is just that: a theory. Evolution CANNOT be reproduced in a laboratory, which means that it's unprovable.
You said "My goal or purpose is to create some kind of union between science and religion." There's really no need to do this, although Spiritism claims to have already bridged the gap between science and religion. If you've never read the books by Allan Kardec, you really should. They smack of truth and make a lot of sense. They actually do 'bridge the gap' between religion and science. They actually prove that TRUE RELIGION IS NOT UN-SCIENTIFIC. On the other hand, atheistic evolution is anti-God.
Science in itself is dead... useless. However, true religion without science is still of great use. There is not spirit in science. However, when dove-tailed with TRUE religion, science becomes spiritualized.
I'm sure that you, and perhaps others think I'm being a jack ass about this. One of the fundamental facts of metaphysics, Spiritualism and religion in general is this: LIFE COMES FROM LIFE. Life NEVER HAS and NEVER CAN come from inanimate matter. Jesus even said, "That which is born of the spirit is spirit." Without the spiritual FACT that life only comes from God (Spirit), religion means nothing... science is worthless without this fact.


Last edited by bhagavandas on May 30th 2013, 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Too harsh.)
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Post by sunmystic on May 30th 2013, 5:25 pm

bhagavandas wrote:Hi John,
We may be agreeing without realizing it. However, I still get the feeling that you believe that immortaility, or the spirit, comes AFTER physical evolution. I may be wrong about this.
I don't believe that evolution has become a fact, nor do I believe that it's becoming more so everyday. The only thing that the 'evolutionary record' proves is that the earth is very, very old. There's NOTHING in the 'evolutionary' record that contradicts the Vedas (aka Hindu Scriptures). The fossil records simply validate the Vedic Scriptures. I'd encourage you to order and read the book FORBIDDEN ARACHEOLOGY by Michael Cremo ( http://www.forbiddenarcheology.com/ ). The fact is, the theory of evolution is just that: a theory. Evolution CANNOT be reproduced in a laboratory, which means that it's unprovable.
You said "My goal or purpose is to create some kind of union between science and religion." There's really no need to do this, although Spiritism claims to have already bridged the gap between science and religion. If you've never read the books by Allan Kardec, you really should. They smack of truth and make a lot of sense. They actually do 'bridge the gap' between religion and science. They actually prove that TRUE RELIGION IS NOT UN-SCIENTIFIC. On the other hand, atheistic evolution is anti-God.
Science in itself is dead... useless. However, true religion without science is still of great use. There is not spirit in science. However, when dove-tailed with TRUE religion, science becomes spiritualized.
I'm sure that you, and perhaps others think I'm being a jack ass about this. One of the fundamental facts of metaphysics, Spiritualism and religion in general is this: LIFE COMES FROM LIFE. Life NEVER HAS and NEVER CAN come from inanimate matter. Jesus even said, "That which is born of the spirit is spirit." Without the spiritual FACT that life only comes from God (Spirit), religion means nothing... science is worthless without this fact.

Thank you Bhagavanda for your input, we all appreciate what you have to say. And what you are saying is more valid than what I am saying as a possibility. Love, John
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